Poll What do you want to buy, Surface Pro or Surface Book?

[GreyFox7]

What do you want to buy...
Truth, I want to buy a Core m 10.8" Surface with a real SSD not eMMC with USB-C Fast Charging, USB3.1 10Gbps ports with USB-C connectors, DP 1.3 port with full spec support, DisplayPort /USB 3.1 Dock, Rock Solid Drivers all round not the erratic and random crashing garbage, but they don't make one. I don't know if they will make one. Just might wait to see if they do.

Id want to buy an SP4 with the same premium features listed above I might have to wait for the S4/SP5/SB2 which hopefully would include these features. Without them I remain undecided about the SP4. For the SP/SB I don't mind it using the Surface Connect port for charging & docking but the connector should be moved next to the keyboard port so that devices in the SP5/SB2 lineup have interchangeable keyboards & docks. That would make the SB1 an orphan one off and the SP3 dock incompatible, so be it, the greater good would be served.

You cannot really have a "Premium" device with weak buggy suboptimal drivers, beautiful hardware by itself is not enough. That's one area where MS needs to step up their game.

 

[CrippsCorner]

It seems we're on the same wave length there... more power in a smaller package please hopefully one day!

 

[MattL]

Yes, the hinge is ridiculously over complex. Laptop hinges were solved about 20 years ago. That Muscle wire release catch? a Fulcrum? External GPU?

What problem do they solve? If that muscle wire catch is supposed to be super strong then why is there still screen wobble? If the hinge doesn't shut properly, surely it has failed in it's function as a hinge?

So they've explained the only reason the hinge is done that way is to increase the surface area of the laptop when fully opened. Consider that in a typical laptop the screen portion only has the screen and it's shell material. That's not a lot of weight, it's very easy for even an ultraportable to ensure the base is heavy enough to counter balance the top. In this the top is basically a full on tablet, you have the CPU the entire system uses and batteries (on top of whatever extra cooling infrastructure is needed). That makes the top *far* more heavy than a typical laptop. This is partially why the top doesn't have more battery life, they just couldn't afford to weigh it down any more. To solve this problem they had to critically balance the batteries in both the top and bottom and consider one of two realistic solutions:

1) Add more weight to the base, this makes it a heavier device overall and far less compelling, especially to get the typical weight distribution of a laptop

2) Figure out a way for the base of the laptop to extend out as you open it to give it more surface area to support the weight imbalance

#1 compromises the product greatly. #2 is what they went with, why didn't they go with a typical hinge? Well that would mean the top part of the laptop would actually be smaller than the bottom half and if it folded over the screen wouldn't close to a perfect fit (from pure guessing it looks like the fulcrum hinge adds a good inch or so of surface area).

These are problems no one else has tried to truly solve since all other detachable screen products are far less stable and far more tablet than laptop.

This is actually quite a genius solution to be honest. Sure there is screen wobble but my MBP 15 has screen wobble and it doesn't support nearly the weight on it's screen half this thing has to. Obviously they could have sacrificed more battery weight in the screen but already at 3-4 hours that wouldn't make any sense and again adding more weight to the base sacrifices the portability of the product. I think they made pretty much the perfect compromise and quite honestly who cares if there's a bit of a gap around the hinge. It honestly just makes it look like a cliboard/binder sort of thing which is actually quite appropriately. It also adds an extremely stable level of base inclination when the screen is flipped which seems quite useful.

What they've created is a thinner Surface Pro 4 with 1/4 battery, no ports and that has to be tethered to a battery base to get real functionality and if you are lucky enough to have the money you can get a middling graphics card too.

The ports were sacrificed for size and overall size of the product as well as weight... as described above I think it's a good compromise. Panos himself said they designed it expecting 80% of the time the thing will be used as a Laptop. They specifically bill this as a laptop first product, that's the point. They even call the screen a "clipboard". Honestly you *shouldn't* be using it without the base close by, that's just not the design of the product. It seems like it's simply meant for cases where you don't need a keyboard so you take the screen off and move the keyboard to the side (or store it nearby) and use it for a couple/few hours with the screen. No reason to need a bunch of ports etc.

As far as middling graphics card... what'd you expect in a 13" ultrabook level laptop. I mean the MBP 13 doesn't have a dedicated video card at all (though I suspect next gen they'll feel obligated to do so to compete)! I myself got a 13" ultrabook with a dedicated video card about 3+ years ago a UX32VD, either one of the first or the first with such. It wasn't a super powerful card, but was about 2-3 times faster than the integrated card and really it was the only option. The best comparison list I've found for 13" ultrabooks with video cards are:

Ultrabooks with dedicated/discrete graphics or optical drives

Ironically they still list mine on there lol, even 3+ years old. As you can see the video cards in those machines aren't very powerful... that's just the reality of this type of machine, having any dedicated video card is awesome! If you want beefier you go for a bigger beefier machine (and certainly one that doesn't convert to a simple tablet).

 

[daniielrp]

So they've explained the only reason the hinge is done that way is to increase the surface area of the laptop when fully opened. Consider that in a typical laptop the screen portion only has the screen and it's shell material. That's not a lot of weight, it's very easy for even an ultraportable to ensure the base is heavy enough to counter balance the top. In this the top is basically a full on tablet, you have the CPU the entire system uses and batteries (on top of whatever extra cooling infrastructure is needed). That makes the top *far* more heavy than a typical laptop. This is partially why the top doesn't have more battery life, they just couldn't afford to weigh it down any more. To solve this problem they had to critically balance the batteries in both the top and bottom and consider one of two realistic solutions:

1) Add more weight to the base, this makes it a heavier device overall and far less compelling, especially to get the typical weight distribution of a laptop

2) Figure out a way for the base of the laptop to extend out as you open it to give it more surface area to support the weight imbalance

#1 compromises the product greatly. #2 is what they went with, why didn't they go with a typical hinge? Well that would mean the top part of the laptop would actually be smaller than the bottom half and if it folded over the screen wouldn't close to a perfect fit (from pure guessing it looks like the fulcrum hinge adds a good inch or so of surface area).

These are problems no one else has tried to truly solve since all other detachable screen products are far less stable and far more tablet than laptop.

This is actually quite a genius solution to be honest. Sure there is screen wobble but my MBP 15 has screen wobble and it doesn't support nearly the weight on it's screen half this thing has to. Obviously they could have sacrificed more battery weight in the screen but already at 3-4 hours that wouldn't make any sense and again adding more weight to the base sacrifices the portability of the product. I think they made pretty much the perfect compromise and quite honestly who cares if there's a bit of a gap around the hinge. It honestly just makes it look like a cliboard/binder sort of thing which is actually quite appropriately. It also adds an extremely stable level of base inclination when the screen is flipped which seems quite useful.



The ports were sacrificed for size and overall size of the product as well as weight... as described above I think it's a good compromise. Panos himself said they designed it expecting 80% of the time the thing will be used as a Laptop. They specifically bill this as a laptop first product, that's the point. They even call the screen a "clipboard". Honestly you *shouldn't* be using it without the base close by, that's just not the design of the product. It seems like it's simply meant for cases where you don't need a keyboard so you take the screen off and move the keyboard to the side (or store it nearby) and use it for a couple/few hours with the screen. No reason to need a bunch of ports etc.

As far as middling graphics card... what'd you expect in a 13" ultrabook level laptop. I mean the MBP 13 doesn't have a dedicated video card at all (though I suspect next gen they'll feel obligated to do so to compete)! I myself got a 13" ultrabook with a dedicated video card about 3+ years ago a UX32VD, either one of the first or the first with such. It wasn't a super powerful card, but was about 2-3 times faster than the integrated card and really it was the only option. The best comparison list I've found for 13" ultrabooks with video cards are:

Ultrabooks with dedicated/discrete graphics or optical drives

Ironically they still list mine on there lol, even 3+ years old. As you can see the video cards in those machines aren't very powerful... that's just the reality of this type of machine, having any dedicated video card is awesome! If you want beefier you go for a bigger beefier machine (and certainly one that doesn't convert to a simple tablet).

So why not just make a laptop? They already have a very good tablet in the SP4, so why bother with this odd clipboard device? If they had just made a laptop there wouldn't be any need for any of this compromise and trying to solve a problem that they only made for themselves.

 

[MattL]

So why not just make a laptop? They already have a very good tablet in the SP4, so why bother with this odd clipboard device? If they had just made a laptop there wouldn't be any need for any of this compromise and trying to solve a problem that they only made for themselves.

Because even if you never remove the screen this is a very good 13" ultrabook laptop. I don't personally see the hinge gap being a problem at all and even though it wasn't done for design it's totally something a company like Apple would do for design (and just make the rest fit).

Considering you're getting a dedicated video card in it (as well as a touch screen + stylus) the price is actually pretty comparable to the MBP 13. So basically there are very few downsides at all and a *huge* upside that you can take the screen off and use it as a very capable tablet for sessions of 3-4 hours (which honestly for someone like me completely removes the need to buy a separate tablet and then sync data across both).

 

[nogridbag]

The Surface Book is very interesting

I'm sure there was demand for a larger Surface Pro and had Microsoft created a 13.5" Surface Pro (instead of the Book form factor) I think I would have bought that. I'm sure they did studies or research and found that the weight of the SP3 is the limit of what people find acceptable in a tablet. So the Surface Book is actually a pretty genius solution. It certainly generated plenty of good media buzz for MS. I wonder if they kept all of the components the same as the SP3 and simply enlarged the display one inch how much more it would actually weigh?

I pre-ordered the Surface Book, but I'm really buying it for the larger display and not really for the dGPU or the better keyboard (the SP4 keyboard is decent enough I think).

 

[jnjroach]

So why not just make a laptop? They already have a very good tablet in the SP4, so why bother with this odd clipboard device? If they had just made a laptop there wouldn't be any need for any of this compromise and trying to solve a problem that they only made for themselves.

Because that isn't the Surface ethos....laptops are not interesting. These are Halo Devices and are targeted at specific segments. I will tell you in our company we have people lining up with why their SP3 should be upgraded to the SB.

 

[callihan_44]

I know this will ruffle some feathers but...I could see surface book becoming more of the focus where in the past the surface pro was the elite device and "surface" was secondary. If the surface book had a kickstand ( and in the future in may very well have it) on the tablet portion I could see "surface" going away and surface pro just being the cheaper device. I think the OEMs have the cheap tablet-laptops covered where Microsoft could focus on elite grade devices to show off it's main product windows.

 

[GreyFox7]

I think the OEMs have the cheap tablet-laptops covered where Microsoft could focus on elite grade devices to show off it's main product windows.

They have the cheap stuff covered and that has been the problem all along. They don't make any premium devices with compelling features (until someone comes along and forces them to do better) they are content to fight each other for the lowest price point and sacrifice all the goodness and quality in the process. Even with the new crop of Surface clones there's not one that challenges the Surface they are just me too entries with lower specs. Microsoft needs to continue being the standard bearer and push the limits of these devices because as soon as they stop the vendors will go back to yesterdays status quo.

 

[mva5580]

My initial thought was the i5/GPU Surface Book but the more I read/think about the specs, I'm leaning towards the i7/16gb SP4.

Surface Book is starting to look like the initial Surface Pro. Really nice and ahead of its time, with the internals not quite ready to match the design yet. The GPU seems underpowered and 3 hours in the tablet battery life is a tough trade off if you actually care about using it as a tablet.

I've checked out the SB at the MS Store and it's really nice....but taking everything into consideration I'm starting to lean to SP4. The i7/16gb version is pretty much the same price (with the keyboard) as the i5/8gb/GPU version of the Surface Book and from the sound of it the Surface Book GPU isn't going to be much better than the i7 Iris graphics.

 

[Nuspieds]

So why not just make a laptop? They already have a very good tablet in the SP4, so why bother with this odd clipboard device? If they had just made a laptop there wouldn't be any need for any of this compromise and trying to solve a problem that they only made for themselves.

Because Surfaces are not meant to be laptops; that is what has always distinguished and attracted people to the device.

When the original Surface Pro was released, without hesitation, I ditched my ThinkPad W700 in favor of the SP and I have never looked back. I was very much looking forward to upgrading from my SP2 to the SP4, until I read about the SB.

Had the SB been a traditional laptop, I can guarantee you that my pre-order would have been for the SP4. But the SB is not just a laptop; yes, it places emphasis on laptop functionality, but it still maintains Surface tablet functionality.

The only disappointment for me and others like me is that the SB tablet functionality is physically inferior to the other Surface tablet models in that it does not have a built-in kickstand. I have no doubt, however, that this will be addressed in future models.

 

[elee532]

I'm still on the fence. I use my SP3 roughly 50-50 in tablet mode. I really want a larger screen! Rumors seemed to indicate that was coming. At first glance, the Surface Book seemed exactly what I wanted + a better keyboard. Battery life and lack of video out on the tablet portion are probably going to be deal killers for me though.

I'd also miss the kickstand and would prefer a fanless Core M option, but think these are things I could live without. Maybe the SB2 will get it right for my needs.