The problem with Microsoft...

[tonyz3]

I think the hardware partners are just grasping for excuses for their non innovation. They been peddling crap and because it is not selling they are pointing at win 8

 

[J515OP]

Sadly this article is as conflicted as your ideas about Microsoft.

Price cuts also inbound

Subtitle very indicative of the point.

The computer market is currently going through one of the roughest spots in recent memory. Consumers continue to purchase devices such as smartphones and tablets instead of upgrading older computers, and even some businesses are holding off on new system purchases/operating system upgrades.

The problem.

Despite these foibles, Microsoft still hit the 100 million licenses sold milestone with Windows 8.

Software success despite hardware sales issues.

The good news for Microsoft is that industry executives say prices for Windows 8 devices are set to decline over the coming months, which should lead to increased consumer interest in the operating system.

The way to increase hardware sales which will also have a positive affect on software sales.

Executives from computer maker Acer have noted that Microsoft is being more "considerate" to its partners and has begun adopting suggestions made by partners "at a high percentage."

"When we were talking to Microsoft, our input to them is balance,” said Acer President Jim Wong. “The world in the next five years is not going 100 percent to touch. Although touch makes a lot of possibilities for PCs, you need to take care of the rest of the world that doesn’t need touch."

Windows Chief Tami Reller acknowledges that there are issues with Windows 8 and that the software giant is working to adjust to consumer feedback. She stopped short of confirming any specific feature changes, but rumors continue to hint that Windows 8.1 will see a return of the Start button.

Nothing to do with the idea that lower prices will hopefully drive more hardware sales. There is no relation between the software and the reason for low hardware sales in the article. Actually just the opposite since the software is selling despite the foibles. The hardware partners are pretty much saying they don't know how to counter the issues causing decreased hardware sales so they are going to try lowering prices and hyping up the revisions to the software as a cure all.

So are you now claiming that even MS's hardware partners have no idea what their customers are telling them? When are you people going to realize MS's focus testing isn't worth spit?

** Remember, all of you in here are evaluating Windows 8 on a very high end touch device. But MOST people that use Windows 8 without access to touch are VERY disappointed. Sadly for MS, this "non-touch" minority is 95% of the market.

Yes, exactly. The hardware partners clearly have no idea or they would be selling hardware other than Android tablets and phones. The hardware partners are these guys:

The dirty not-so-secret of the computer world is that no one makes much money in hardware, so with razor-thin margins they save money by not doing research beyond that they need to integrate new chips and hardware, which is usually only incrementally better than last year's hardware, because their suppliers have the same problem. In fact, most computer companies do no research whatsoever and just assemble parts or pay other companies to assemble the parts and they just sell the completed units. So companies like Microsoft and Intel increasingly do research for them and pass it on to make the whole ecosystem move forward (USB, Tablet, optical mice, etc are all ideas from Microsoft or Intel).

Yes, touch is dead there are millions upon millions upon millions of touch tablets and phones being sold on a quarterly basis and what people secretly want to do but are to afraid to do is go back to using non-touch desktop devices mg:

 

[J515OP]

Here is a much better article about the issues MS is facing with Windows 8.

Windows 8 hits 100 million sales, tweaks for mini-tablets in works | Reuters

 

[Russ]

I think the hardware partners are just grasping for excuses for their non innovation. They been peddling crap and because it is not selling they are pointing at win 8

Tony --

Worse yet, trying to improve their margins, they have been loading up their products with so much crap-ware that the final product is barely usable. Less knowledgeable buyers are actually paying to have that stuff removed. And, now, of course, it is all the fault of Windows 8.

Yeah, right.

Regards,
Russ

 

[J515OP]

Tony --

Worse yet, trying to improve their margins, they have been loading up their products with so much crap-ware that the final product is barely usable. Less knowledgeable buyers are actually paying to have that stuff removed. And, now, of course, it is all the fault of Windows 8.

Yeah, right.

Regards,
Russ

Interestingly enough MS charges more for signature versions which come bloatware free. I never liked the idea that you have to pay more to get pure Windows from MS. I suppose they are kowtowing to their hardware partners who are losing the extra revenue on the missing bloatware. At the end of the day MS recognizes that for Windows to be successful they need the guys that actually know how to mass produce the hardware.

Ironically when Vizio wanted to ship clean PCs without even Windows stickers MS balked before agreeing to place the stickers under the bottom.

Reducing clutter and increasing overall quality also meant fighting with Microsoft and Intel to keep the machines sticker-free. “I hate opening a PC and seeing stickers and flashing LEDs all over the place,” says McManigal. McRae was even more vehement: he spent hours arguing about the stickers, even putting together PowerPoints of forum posts and websites discussing the best ways to remove stickers from other Windows PCs. The fight paid off: Vizio's machines are totally clean apart from a small Windows emblem silkscreened on the bottom casing...

The relentless focus on reducing clutter extended to the preloaded software on the PCs as well — or rather, the almost complete lack of preloaded software. “Something like 30 percent of people buy a PC and re-image it,” says McRae. “Retailers charge $50 to clean an image that they themselves ruined.” Just like the stickers, turning down crapware means Vizio is turning down money — preloading all those demos and offers generates significant revenue for traditional PC vendors. “We thought about it for 30 seconds,” says Matt. “It's easy to make a product that's clean when everything else is completely messed up. There's a big market in that crapware, but it's not worth it.”

Vizio reboots the PC: a quiet American success story takes on sleeping giants | The Verge

 

[Russ]

JP --

Thanks, that is really good info. My problem -- well, among my problems -- is that I have been building my own computers for so long that I didn't even know the situation existed. I might have read about it, but it meant nothing to me, so I ignored it, until my daughter brought a friend over to see if I could "fix" her computer. My first reaction was, "Who put all this [feces] on your computer?" I was astonished when she explained that it came out of the box that way.

At the end of the day MS recognizes that for Windows to be successful they need the guys that actually know how to mass produce the hardware.

Yeah, Microsoft is like a guy walking along the top of a picket fence -- one slip could alter his outlook on life. They need the hardware folks, yet they cannot allow them to destroy the business.

In fact, I didn't even know what a "Signature" machine was until you explained it to me a while back. (Yeah, I know; I should get out more.)

Take care,
Russ

 

[mitchellvii]

People can we stop with the 100 million licenses sold business? This is NOT NOT NOT sales to end users. This is sales to OEM's and Retailers at the wholesale level. Since these manufacturers pretty much have to put Windows 8 on all new computers they have no choice but to buy a license. The 100 million sold is NO INDICATION WHATSOEVER of public demand. What IS an indication of public demand is the absolute cratering of PC sales. PC's are unbelievably cheap right now. If there was public demand for Windows 8 don't you think sales would be improving? The ability of some of the MS fanboys in here to say that PC sales imploding over the last year has NOTHING to do with Windows 8 is hilarious. Of COURSE it has everything to do with Windows 8. The entire message of Windows 8 before it came out was that it was going to save the PC market.

And why is there a Windows Blue so soon after the initial release, because Windows 8 has been such a hit? Windows Blue is no minor tweak, it is a major update. Why, because of some tiny minority screaming for a Start Button? Would MS actually do a major update to satisfy a small minority (an update, by the way, the do NOT want to do)?

But MS does seem to be getting the message. Looks like they are going to make Windows Blue much more friendly to desktop users and Windows Tablet prices look to be coming down across the board. This doesn't make MS visionary. MS wanted NONE of this. The are being dragged kicking and screaming across the finish line by some VERY unhappy OEM's.

 

[mitchellvii]

I think the hardware partners are just grasping for excuses for their non innovation. They been peddling crap and because it is not selling they are pointing at win 8

Yes of course. It is ANYONE'S FAULT BUT MS. What do manufacturers know? What do end users know? Ms is the visionary here and everyone else is either lazy or stupid.

With that kind of arrogance no wonder MS first shot at Windows 8 has been such a train wreck with actual customers.

But, if MS is so visionary and amazing and everyone else is wrong, why Windows Blue? These aren't some minor tweaks and fixes, this is a completely new approach to the way users interact with the OS.

 

[tonyz3]

Than I guess we should bring up the argument of market share doesn't equal profit. Especially when you are giving away your products for free. Another argument should be number of apps in apps store doesn't equal quality apps.

 

[DOS]

Well, this thread started out as a “Return of the Start Button” debate and has come full circle to another Microsoft bashing thread.

Sorry to say, but I don’t think Windows 8.1 is going to be the desktop savior you are seeking. I think Windows 8.1 is going to be porting a lot more of the Windows desktop features to the Modern UI as well as focusing on Modern UI enhancements.

With that said, I do think Microsoft has heard your cries (who hasn’t?) and they will bring back the “Start Button”. However, being the devious, malicious, spiteful organization they are, the Windows 8 Start Button will merely bring you back to the Modern UI Start Screen.

Think of it as Mircosoft’s way of “twisting the blade”.

 

[tonyz3]

With that said, I do think Microsoft has heard your cries (who hasn’t?) and they will bring back the “Start Button”. However, being the devious, malicious, spiteful organization they are, the Windows 8 Start Button will merely bring you back to the Modern UI Start Screen.

Think of it as Mircosoft’s way of “twisting the blade”.

lol :LOL:

 

[pallentx]

Windows Blue is no minor tweak, it is a major update. Why, because of some tiny minority screaming for a Start Button? Would MS actually do a major update to satisfy a small minority (an update, by the way, the do NOT want to do)?

But MS does seem to be getting the message. Looks like they are going to make Windows Blue much more friendly to desktop users and Windows Tablet prices look to be coming down across the board. This doesn't make MS visionary. MS wanted NONE of this. The are being dragged kicking and screaming across the finish line by some VERY unhappy OEM's.

Looking at the video you posted, it looks like a minor tweak to me. Adding a graphical start button is really not a revolutionary GUI change. Booting straight to classic desktop isn't either - its literally one click to get there now. There's some other cool tweaks - I like the smaller tiles option like WP8 has. I'm guessing MS figured if a subset of people are really are upset about the button, its an easy addition that doesn't really change how you use the computer. I just hope its an option. The goal is a single interface that work on touch and on a desktop - as long as they keep that philosophy, I'm happy. Old school start menu and program menus don't do that. I fully expect MS to tweak the GUI for years to come. Look how much Windows changed since Windows 95 when the taskbar/start button first came out.