tonyz3
New Member
This is old news or should i say an old rumor. We will see if it happens. Microsoft Planning To Release Three Different Surface Tablets Next Year [REPORT] | Redmond Pie
How to make the Surface Pro a killer product
- Thread starter disambiguous1
- Start date
icwhatudidthere
New Member
Awe that kinda sucks if true. I'm in the 11.6" is unwieldy camp and I love my Surface Pro. Plus if they kept the same HD resolution with a larger screen, they'll drop PPI even more. Sigh.
J515OP
Super Moderator
How do you explain the Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 and Lenovo S2110? Clearly there is a market for 10" tablets (and smaller) as well. There is nothing inherently better about one size than another and it comes down to personal preference.
If an 11.6" device works for you then buy a non-Surface 11.6" device. A Surface doesn't need to be this size if others Win 8 devices are. I would rather have MS do something different and push the envelope like they did with the Surface (smallest and lightest ultrabook ever). MS isn't even a manufacturer. Let the other companies figure out how to make one of every size. MS only needs to inspire them and show the world that it is possible for a company other than Apple to design great hardware. If MS can somehow push the envelope even further by making the Surface 2 11.6" then go for it but making it 11.6" for the sake of hitting an arbitrary number is pointless
J515OP
Super Moderator
So you are a Samsung fan then? :wink:
mitchellvii
Well-Known Member
Those are pure tablets. The Surface Pro is an ultrabook that has tablet functionality. This assumes the user will be doing REAL work which in turn requires REAL room. Because the SP is so small, we are forced to set zoom at 150% if we want to work on our legacy Office apps without going blind. On an 11.6" screen I could comfortably work on my Access Database at 125% zoom which means I can fit more on my forms. In addition, my external monitor will look much better at 125% zoom as opposed to 150% (where stuff is so big it just looks silly).
If an 11.6" device works for you then buy a non-Surface 11.6" device. A Surface doesn't need to be this size if others Win 8 devices are. I would rather have MS do something different and push the envelope like they did with the Surface (smallest and lightest ultrabook ever). MS isn't even a manufacturer. Let the other companies figure out how to make one of every size. MS only needs to inspire them and show the world that it is possible for a company other than Apple to design great hardware. If MS can somehow push the envelope even further by making the Surface 2 11.6" then go for it but making it 11.6" for the sake of hitting an arbitrary number is pointless
You really seem to get hung up on this, "MS did it so it must be awesome" meme. There is nothing intrinsically good about a product simply because it happens to come out of MS.
11.6" is hardly a random number. It is the minimum size at which you can have a full keyboard with usable keys. If it is no harder to carry around an 11.6" screen than a 10.6" screen, why not go for the larger form factor. I selected the SP at the time because the other 11.6" offerings were overpriced IMHO.
If anything is a random number it is 10.6".
J515OP
Super Moderator
The assumption of the type of work doesn't have anything to do with it in this case. "Real room" is relative. If people needed "real room" to work we'd all be walking around with 24"+ devices or always be connected to external monitors
The market has clearly indicated that there is a preference for tablets of about 10" in diagonal size and smaller tablets of either 7" or 8" in diagonal size. Maybe 11.6" tablets will take off with the rise of Windows 8 but what I read and hear indicates that many people believe a 10" is about the maximum usable size for a tablet, not other devices such as notebooks but specifically tablets which are freely held. Along those same lines there is a large contingent that says anything less than 13" is too small for a notebook and getting real work done. This is why "real room" is relative and to some people less than 13" is too small.This is all your personal preference. There may be inconveniences of dealing with a 10.6" screen at high resolution but there is more than only one 11.6" screen size solution to that issue. They could have also simple made the screen resolution lower and things wouldn't look so tiny and wouldn't need to be scaled. Maybe Surface Pro 2 should step down to the Surface RT resolution to solve your issues. They could also, oh I don't know maybe make external monitors auto scale (oh wait that is something they are said to be working on
), which would solve the issue without the need for an 11.6" screen. You are not forced to use any specific zoom level or resolution and can change it at will. Your preference is to have 1920x1080 resolution at 125% zoom and your opinion is that only an 11.6" screen makes this work. Others may see no difference what so ever between a 10.6" and 11.6" screen but may notice an increase in weight and bulk which they would prefer to not have.I haven't said this anywhere.
Where is the human users manual that says 11.6" is the minimum size of a keyboard with usable keys for human hands? In fact many have noted that the Surface covers feel less cramped and easier to type on than other traditional notebooks. A lot of factors go into making a good keyboard and by most accounts MS seems to have created good Touch/Type keyboards. Additionally these are only accessories. You can opt to use the onscreen keyboard and you can choose any keyboard other than the Touch/Type covers you want for an accessory keyboard. If you are unhappy with the size of the keyboard use another size.
Then it was your choice to get a smaller screen. If the 11.6" size is so superior clearly it should have easily won out in the cost analysis you so carefully conducted before buying the right device for you and you must have made a mistake not spending the extra money for a superior screen size
10.6" is somewhat arbitrary but MS has also divulged information on how it came to use this size. Clearly you like to make things up about what Microsoft does and does not do when it comes to designing and releasing products based on your own opinions and philosophies about how MS operates but once it a while it you might actually read about what goes in to MS's processes and how things came to be. At least your theories about MS's innerworkings are highly entertaining
Microsoft Surface: inside the three-year secret project to build the first great Windows tablet
mitchellvii
Well-Known Member
J515OP,
You give a classic example of MS not listening to users. It is common knowledge that 11.6" in the minimum size for a full sized keyboard with all the bells and whistles without getting into tiny keys. Google it.
At the time I bought the SP the Thinkpad Helix was not available. Now that it is at a minimum of $1500 too expensive for an 11.6 inch ultrabook/tablet. The ATIV 700 was selling for $1299 and again overpriced. In addition, I didn't like the build quality.
The fact that there are other tablets available at 11.6" doesn't mean MS should not consider it for their next iteration. You say that MS spent 3 years pouring over all sizes and shapes before settling on 10.6". Let's not forget this is the same company that picked a one-size-fits-all kickstand because they liked the cool sound it made when you closed it. MS is fully capable of trying really hard then making the dumbest possible choice.
I would say I am a pretty typical businessman running pretty typical legacy Office applications. As such I am saying that 11.6" would be highly beneficial. Since MS apparently listens to no one who doesn't already agree with them, I don't expect them to change it.
What is it that is so damned great about 10.6"? It is too big to be small and to small to be big. What problem does 10.6" solve? I can think of a number it causes. I actually almost think MS designed the SP to fit the keyboard rather than the other way around. In order to have this keyboard it needed to be 10.6".
MY THEORY ON MICROSOFT'S INNER WORKINGS:
Right in he middle of Microsoft Headquarters they have a door. On that door is a sign. It is the door for the most important department at Microsoft. The sign says, "Department of Breaking What Works".
Don't forget, from a sales standpoint, Windows 8 and the entire Surface line are abject screaming disastrous failures. Keep that in mind when praising Microsoft's brilliant design strategy - assuming of course that MS's overall goal was to actually sell something.
The Surface Pro is a good device, not a great device. What makes it a failure is that it could have been a great device. If the SP had had an 11.6" inch screen, an adjustable kickstand and came with the keyboard included, I am willing to bet it would have flown off the shelves.
You give a classic example of MS not listening to users. It is common knowledge that 11.6" in the minimum size for a full sized keyboard with all the bells and whistles without getting into tiny keys. Google it.
At the time I bought the SP the Thinkpad Helix was not available. Now that it is at a minimum of $1500 too expensive for an 11.6 inch ultrabook/tablet. The ATIV 700 was selling for $1299 and again overpriced. In addition, I didn't like the build quality.
The fact that there are other tablets available at 11.6" doesn't mean MS should not consider it for their next iteration. You say that MS spent 3 years pouring over all sizes and shapes before settling on 10.6". Let's not forget this is the same company that picked a one-size-fits-all kickstand because they liked the cool sound it made when you closed it. MS is fully capable of trying really hard then making the dumbest possible choice.
I would say I am a pretty typical businessman running pretty typical legacy Office applications. As such I am saying that 11.6" would be highly beneficial. Since MS apparently listens to no one who doesn't already agree with them, I don't expect them to change it.
What is it that is so damned great about 10.6"? It is too big to be small and to small to be big. What problem does 10.6" solve? I can think of a number it causes. I actually almost think MS designed the SP to fit the keyboard rather than the other way around. In order to have this keyboard it needed to be 10.6".
MY THEORY ON MICROSOFT'S INNER WORKINGS:
Right in he middle of Microsoft Headquarters they have a door. On that door is a sign. It is the door for the most important department at Microsoft. The sign says, "Department of Breaking What Works".
Don't forget, from a sales standpoint, Windows 8 and the entire Surface line are abject screaming disastrous failures. Keep that in mind when praising Microsoft's brilliant design strategy - assuming of course that MS's overall goal was to actually sell something.
The Surface Pro is a good device, not a great device. What makes it a failure is that it could have been a great device. If the SP had had an 11.6" inch screen, an adjustable kickstand and came with the keyboard included, I am willing to bet it would have flown off the shelves.
Last edited:
malberttoo
Well-Known Member
This is NOT accurate! Having to set the DPI at 150%, in the Surface Pro's case, has nothing to do with the size of the unit, or the screen. It is because the resolution is insane.
Last edited:
J515OP
Super Moderator
Well we will just have to agree to disagree about a specific size of a keyboard being the minimum. Did anybody try 11.4" or 11.5"? What disastrous consequences did they experience at those sizes? Where can I find the definitive ergonomic studies on this?
The Helix does a lot more than deliver an 11.6" screen at the $1500 price. So that really makes it an even better value.
I actually said I have no problem with MS making an 11.6" screen for their next tablet. All they need to do is set a standard much like Google does with Nexus. It doesn't even have to be best in class but they do need to show what Windows hardware can be vs. what mass market PCs are.
Nothing is so great about 10.6" and I said it is somewhat arbitrary and then provided you the direct evidence of how MS came to use it. In fact all the arguments you use against 10.6" can be applied to 11.6" as well since they are strictly opinion. I am not saying it is right or wrong but they made hundreds of prototypes and decided that is what they wanted to make. It is their tablet and I personally have no problem with the size and may even prefer a more Android like 16:10 10.1" design but I am not going to tell them I know better than they do. I just read the spec and decide if I want to buy that size or not.
This is exactly what I mean... highly entertaining theory
Windows 8 and the Surface line are not abject failures and there are a couple of new threads with article pointing this out. I believe you even commented in some but perhaps forgot to read the linked articles? MS revenue is up and Windows 8 sales are flat at worst while PC sales are shrinking. This is a good sign for MS since Windows is pretty much useless without a PC and is still selling better than PCs themselves. MS is selling and is profiting I am not sure how you can make a claim otherwise since these are facts.
I will also have to agree to disagree that SP would have sold materially better with an 11.6" screen and an adjustable kickstand. My opinion is that is a silly claim to make since I don't believe that either of those two points is specifically responsible for either creating a sale or losing a sale. I would wager that the majority of consumers would say they want a 10" tablet because that is a size that has become universal for tablets and that they do not really know much about the kickstand including which tablet it comes on let alone the adjust ability. Anecdotal evidence on this forum indicates most people still can't tell the difference between an iPad and any other tablet including the Surface.
JP
The Helix does a lot more than deliver an 11.6" screen at the $1500 price. So that really makes it an even better value.
I actually said I have no problem with MS making an 11.6" screen for their next tablet. All they need to do is set a standard much like Google does with Nexus. It doesn't even have to be best in class but they do need to show what Windows hardware can be vs. what mass market PCs are.
Nothing is so great about 10.6" and I said it is somewhat arbitrary and then provided you the direct evidence of how MS came to use it. In fact all the arguments you use against 10.6" can be applied to 11.6" as well since they are strictly opinion. I am not saying it is right or wrong but they made hundreds of prototypes and decided that is what they wanted to make. It is their tablet and I personally have no problem with the size and may even prefer a more Android like 16:10 10.1" design but I am not going to tell them I know better than they do. I just read the spec and decide if I want to buy that size or not.
This is exactly what I mean... highly entertaining theory
Windows 8 and the Surface line are not abject failures and there are a couple of new threads with article pointing this out. I believe you even commented in some but perhaps forgot to read the linked articles? MS revenue is up and Windows 8 sales are flat at worst while PC sales are shrinking. This is a good sign for MS since Windows is pretty much useless without a PC and is still selling better than PCs themselves. MS is selling and is profiting I am not sure how you can make a claim otherwise since these are facts.
I will also have to agree to disagree that SP would have sold materially better with an 11.6" screen and an adjustable kickstand. My opinion is that is a silly claim to make since I don't believe that either of those two points is specifically responsible for either creating a sale or losing a sale. I would wager that the majority of consumers would say they want a 10" tablet because that is a size that has become universal for tablets and that they do not really know much about the kickstand including which tablet it comes on let alone the adjust ability. Anecdotal evidence on this forum indicates most people still can't tell the difference between an iPad and any other tablet including the Surface.
JP
You givea classic example of MS not listening to users. It is common knowledge that11.6" in the minimum size for a full sized keyboard with all the bells andwhistles without getting into tiny keys. Google it.
Once again,you claim your view is “common knowledge”, yet if you go to the Ultrabook forums on the web most would argue that 13.3 is minimum to get a full sizekeyboard, etc..
At the time I bought the SP the ThinkPad Helix was not available. Now that itis at a minimum of $1500 too expensive for an 11.6 inch Ultrabook/tablet. TheATIV 700 was selling for $1299 and again overpriced. In addition, I didn't likethe build quality.
So yousettled for a less than ideal solutions because you were unwilling to spend $100 additional to get the Ativ 700T?
The fact that there are other tablets available at 11.6" doesn't mean MSshould not consider it for their next iteration. You say that MS spent 3 yearspouring over all sizes and shapes before settling on 10.6". Let's notforget this is the same company that picked a one-size-fits-all kickstandbecause they liked the cool sound it made when you closed it. MS is fullycapable of trying really hard then making the dumbest possible choice.
Microsoft spent 3 years, studying what was the smallest size that would work as a tablet and Ultrabook competitor, 10.6 was the size that worked best, also thekickstand was designed to be durable, adding adjustments would add to the complexity and introduces additional points of failure. You will find a similar compromise on all of the Ultrabook Hybrids (Ativ, Helix, etc...) Everyone is complaining about the lack of adjusting screen angles. You can believe whatyou like, but MS spends more on R&D and Usability Studies then anyone inthe industry.
I would say I am a pretty typical businessman running pretty typical legacyOffice applications. As such I am saying that 11.6" would be highlybeneficial. Since MS apparently listens to no one who doesn't already agreewith them, I don't expect them to change it.
You should have spent the extra $100 to get the 11.6” Ativ, they were available and even uses the older Wacom Digitizer.
What is it that is so damned great about 10.6"? It is too big to be smalland to small to be big. What problem does 10.6" solve? I can think of anumber it causes. I actually almost think MS designed the SP to fit thekeyboard rather than the other way around. In order to have this keyboard itneeded to be 10.6".
See above
<snip the whining veiled as a conspiracy theory>
Don't forget, from a sales standpoint, Windows 8 and the entire Surface lineare abject screaming disastrous failures. Keep that in mind whenpraising Microsoft's brilliant design strategy - assuming of course that MS'soverall goal was to actually sell something.
Untrue….but you won’t listen
The Surface Pro is a good device, not a great device. What makes it a failureis that it could have been a great device. If the SP had had an 11.6" inchscreen, an adjustable kickstand and came with the keyboard included, I amwilling to bet it would have flown off the shelves.
We would just have the other group whining that MS should have made it 13.3” after all it is common knowledge that is the minimum size for a full sized keyboard
Once again,you claim your view is “common knowledge”, yet if you go to the Ultrabook forums on the web most would argue that 13.3 is minimum to get a full sizekeyboard, etc..
At the time I bought the SP the ThinkPad Helix was not available. Now that itis at a minimum of $1500 too expensive for an 11.6 inch Ultrabook/tablet. TheATIV 700 was selling for $1299 and again overpriced. In addition, I didn't likethe build quality.
So yousettled for a less than ideal solutions because you were unwilling to spend $100 additional to get the Ativ 700T?
The fact that there are other tablets available at 11.6" doesn't mean MSshould not consider it for their next iteration. You say that MS spent 3 yearspouring over all sizes and shapes before settling on 10.6". Let's notforget this is the same company that picked a one-size-fits-all kickstandbecause they liked the cool sound it made when you closed it. MS is fullycapable of trying really hard then making the dumbest possible choice.
Microsoft spent 3 years, studying what was the smallest size that would work as a tablet and Ultrabook competitor, 10.6 was the size that worked best, also thekickstand was designed to be durable, adding adjustments would add to the complexity and introduces additional points of failure. You will find a similar compromise on all of the Ultrabook Hybrids (Ativ, Helix, etc...) Everyone is complaining about the lack of adjusting screen angles. You can believe whatyou like, but MS spends more on R&D and Usability Studies then anyone inthe industry.
I would say I am a pretty typical businessman running pretty typical legacyOffice applications. As such I am saying that 11.6" would be highlybeneficial. Since MS apparently listens to no one who doesn't already agreewith them, I don't expect them to change it.
You should have spent the extra $100 to get the 11.6” Ativ, they were available and even uses the older Wacom Digitizer.
What is it that is so damned great about 10.6"? It is too big to be smalland to small to be big. What problem does 10.6" solve? I can think of anumber it causes. I actually almost think MS designed the SP to fit thekeyboard rather than the other way around. In order to have this keyboard itneeded to be 10.6".
See above
<snip the whining veiled as a conspiracy theory>
Don't forget, from a sales standpoint, Windows 8 and the entire Surface lineare abject screaming disastrous failures. Keep that in mind whenpraising Microsoft's brilliant design strategy - assuming of course that MS'soverall goal was to actually sell something.
Untrue….but you won’t listen
The Surface Pro is a good device, not a great device. What makes it a failureis that it could have been a great device. If the SP had had an 11.6" inchscreen, an adjustable kickstand and came with the keyboard included, I amwilling to bet it would have flown off the shelves.
We would just have the other group whining that MS should have made it 13.3” after all it is common knowledge that is the minimum size for a full sized keyboard
Last edited:
Similar threads
